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Poll Question: Who was the WEAKEST Official World Chess Champion?
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Steinitz    
  17 (35.4%)
Lasker    
  1 (2.1%)
Alekhine    
  1 (2.1%)
Euwe    
  21 (43.8%)
Botvinnik    
  0 (0.0%)
Smyslov    
  1 (2.1%)
Tal    
  2 (4.2%)
Petrosian    
  3 (6.2%)
Spassky    
  2 (4.2%)
Karpov    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 48
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FIDE KO (Read 32081 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #65 - 08/05/05 at 14:59:48
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BTW,

I do agree with previous comments that Keres' situation was tenuous, but the timeline is important.  Yes, Botvinnik did actually step in to protect Keres.  Keres was not given much time to prepare for the tournament and perhaps he felt a personal debt to Botvinnik.  The idea of him throwing games doesn't fit with Bronstein's description of Keres as a knight of chess who seemed to rise himself at the very thought of a tournament! (See Zurich International...1953)

The USSR Sporting Committee decided that Keres was not guilty of being a Nazi sympathizer and allowed him to join the Communist party before the tournament. As Kasparov was later to point out, one joined the Party if one wasn't already a favorite.  Therefore Kasparov (born Weinstein) was a Party member but Karpov (who enjoyed all the favors of a super star in the USSR) was not.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #64 - 08/05/05 at 14:40:10
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Apparently there's a little known clause in FIDE's rejection of the Botvinnik Rule:  Botvinnik himself was grandfathered in.  That means, he still had the right to challenge Petrosian in a rematch if he wanted to.  Shocked He declined (and this time he was right to because Petrosian woulda beaten the old champion in '64 too!).  Botvinnik cited health reasons for not challenging again, and when you consider how old he was, he probably was telling the truth!
  
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woofwoof
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #63 - 08/05/05 at 13:43:26
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I see!!! so FIDE changed the rules!! No wonder the other Soviets after him did not get a privalage of a rematch. Thanks TJ!  Smiley
  

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TalJechin
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #62 - 08/05/05 at 13:25:12
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Botvinnik retired because FIDE had changed the rules so he wouldn't get a return match...

That only B enjoyed this is of course due to 1) that he was the first fide champ and 2) he was soviet and thus had the support of the soviet and other eastblock delegates in fide's congress.
  
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woofwoof
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #61 - 08/05/05 at 11:12:17
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woofwoof: Botvinnik didn't get a returnmatch with Petrosian, if he had he might have been champ another 20 years! Wink


No rematch here cos Botvinnik chose to retire. He went on to try & develop chess computers. Smiley

"But other than that, I don't think a return match is unnatural or unsporting. If you really are a stronger player than the champ, it shouldn't be so hard to beat him twice."

True. But it still does not explain why a rematch  was applicable to Botvinnik alone & not the rest, during his era.
  

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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #60 - 08/05/05 at 10:40:11
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"Moreover, Botvinnik was especially selective in who was invited to the 1948 AVRO tournament at which he won the title."
I agree with Smyslov_Fan and largely with TalJechin here. The AVRO tournament was of course in 1938, not in 1948. The five strongest players participated. Maybe Fine should have been replaced by Najdorf, but I do not think Najdorf would have stand a chance. Something one must know, is the agreement of 1939. The plan was, that Keres would play a match against Euwe - which actually took place and Keres won. The other match would have been Fine against Botvinnik. The winners were expected to play again and that winner against Alekhine. So the match-tournament of 1948 was indeed the best solution; pity that Fine withdrew.
Not so long ago I read a comment by Kortsjnoj on Keres and the conspiracy theory. I think Kortsjnoj came close to the truth. After 1945 until 1948 Estonia suffered more from Sovjet occupation than it had from Nazi occupation - with the exception of the jews of course, who were exterminated. It is likely, that Keres had to fear transportation to the mines of Siberia. According to Kortsjnoj it was Botvinnik who prevented this. One can imagine, that these events were not encouraging Keres to perform well against Botvinnik.
Fact is, that Keres was not allowed to participate in the Staunton tournament in Groningen, immediately after the war.
I must say, that this theory looks probable to me, considering the characters of Botvinnik and Keres and the political circumstances of 1945-1948.
  

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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #59 - 08/05/05 at 10:08:35
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woofwoof: Botvinnik didn't get a returnmatch with Petrosian, if he had he might have been champ another 20 years! Wink
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #58 - 08/05/05 at 10:05:21
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There is one final point to make about why Keres was supposedly singled out to lose games.  There have been those who said that Keres was encouraged to lose because he was Estonian.  Yet a decade later a player from the next Baltic state over won the right to play Botvinnik for the title.  He was not reprimanded, he was glorified for his crushing defeat of Smyslov and others.  Of course, I am talking about Mikhail Tal.

I do not defend the horrors of the Soviet system, but there is no evidence that Botvinnik was complicit in any scheme to throw matches.  The worst that can be said of him is that a) he was overbearing and b) he actively lobbied for the "Botvinnik rule" which granted him a re-match within a year of losing any match.


Well, the comparison between Keres and Tal limps a bit since the latter resulted in an all Soviet WCh showing off the total Soviet domination. While Keres was a risk for that dominance, since he'd played in Nazi Germany and not being a true Soviet communist etc, so naturally they would prefer the devoted Botvinnik and probably did tell Keres that famous: 'if Botvinnik doesn't win it should not be because of you...'

I looked at the games Keres-Botvinnik some years ago and got convinced that some of them looked very suspicious. And I definitely don't believe Keres would normally play below par just because he had a dry position to play. All top players know that sometimes against weaker players you need to take some risks to win in such cases, but they all know how to draw these against their peers!

On the other hand, I don't believe Botvinnik asked for any unfair priviledges. And thus I don't consider him any dirtier than any other Soviet World Champion, surely they all had connections and took advantage, except perhaps Tal, who fell ill just before the return match in '61 and Botvinnik denied him time to recuperate, which could be another sign who the athorities wanted...

But other than that, I don't think a return match is unnatural or unsporting. If you really are a stronger player than the champ, it shouldn't be so hard to beat him twice. Historically, both Steinitz and Alekhine got return matches and Capa surely regretted he didn't have one stipulated in the contract...

When reading Sosonko's Russian Silhouettes, I got a very favourable impression of Botvinnik. Ultra serious and with bone hard principles, and not one to ever forget an injustice but not unsporting or devious...

Besides, wasn't it B who made sure Kasparov got a fair chance in his first match with Karpov?
  
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #57 - 08/05/05 at 09:43:00
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That was a very enlightening account of that 1948 WCh tournament, Smslov-fan. Thanks very much.

My question about the Botvinnik rule - did it apply exclusively to Botvinnik alone? or did it also apply to other dethroned WCh as well?? Its a bit confusing here - In the book on the 1972 match by C H O D Alexander, he wrote that Spassky by his play in the match definitely earns him a right to a return match against Fischer. But there was no such return match, & Spassky was challenging Karpov in the candidates final to meet Fischer in 1975. Likewise there was no return match for Tigran after 1969. He ended up among those vying for a chance to play Spassky in 72 losing to  Fischer in the candidates semis 1971.

So... if it applies exclusively to Botvinnik alone, thats rather unfair. By this rule alone Botvinnik escaped a lot of requalifying thro those interzonals & candidates games to get a second crack at his lost title. This to me is enough to suggest moral cowordice on Botvinnik's part ; great strategist & analyst that he is tho. But whatever the case maybe, he used it to his full advantage! I certainly dont see why Botvinnik should have the privalage to a rematch whilst Petrosian & Spassky had to start all over again. The interesting question here would be- on what merits did he deserve a rematch?? What did he have that Petrosian & Spassky did not have??.
  

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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #56 - 08/05/05 at 07:56:26
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I'd like to toss in a word (or as is my habit, a ream of words Wink) on Botvinnik before it really starts to snowball.

Botvinnik did not hand pick those who played in the 1948 match-play tournament for the World Championship.  The 1948 tournament ranks as one of the all-time greatest contests, despite what GM Larry Evans was to write nearly fifty years after the fact.  Botvinnik won every single mini-match of the tournament, and did so in extremely convincing style. 

The tournament was originally planned for six players to play five-game matches against each other and the winner would be declared champion.  Given the circumstances, this was most fair for all concerned.  Euwe, as the last living World Champion plus the other top five players were invited.  Reuben Fine declined his invitation.  Smyslov, Keres (about whom so much has been written) and Reshevsky were all there, but the clear favorite was Botvinnik. 

Botvinnik lost only two games in the entire tournament, to Reshevsky and Keres.  He finished three points clear of second place (Smyslov) despite having relaxed in the last series of games. 

I don't know about anyone else, but I have played through the games of this tournament about three times now.  Botvinnik's performance was absolutely amazing, and any claims to the contrary strike me as irrelevant griping.  I am sure he received help from the Soviet Union in the form of the best training facilities and comfortable lodgings, but I am also certain that he won the match fairly. 

Keres, who seems to be everyone's favorite victim in this tournament, beat Smyslov 3-2, lost to Botvinnik 1-4. (The score itself created the controversy because people in the West couldn't believe a player as strong as Keres could be dominated.  But as GM Evans says, just look at the games! Tongue)  Keres lost his match to Reshevsky 2-3, and beat Euwe 4.5-.5.  Maybe that last result should be analysed! Shocked  (Euwe's performance was so abysmal that when he left the Hague where the first half of the tournament was held, he was called "Ik no winnik" -- "I don't win" as a play on Botvinnik's name.)

The conspiracy theories revolving around Keres having to throw games do not match the facts either of this tournament or his subsequent career.  Keres had an exploitable weakness which even non-Soviets took advantage of.  He was not good (against the very best in the world) in relatively dry positions.  He would make absolutely reckless moves that would blind lesser lights, but were butalized by the very best.  His last game against Smyslov in 1953 is a case in point.  Yes, I know what Bronstein has to say in The Sorcerer's Apprentice, but Bronstein's comments about the Zurich tournament are not supported by any other player, including himself in earlier writings!

There is one final point to make about why Keres was supposedly singled out to lose games.  There have been those who said that Keres was encouraged to lose because he was Estonian.  Yet a decade later a player from the next Baltic state over won the right to play Botvinnik for the title.  He was not reprimanded, he was glorified for his crushing defeat of Smyslov and others.  Of course, I am talking about Mikhail Tal.

I do not defend the horrors of the Soviet system, but there is no evidence that Botvinnik was complicit in any scheme to throw matches.  The worst that can be said of him is that a) he was overbearing and b) he actively lobbied for the "Botvinnik rule" which granted him a re-match within a year of losing any match.
  
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #55 - 08/05/05 at 01:10:44
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Well.... the thought on Botvinnik did occur to me jus that I didnt bring it up as i didnt have enough info for back up. I personally thought that gaining the championship through a tournament was somewhat 'lucky' given that all championships were matches & matches are a more severe test of a players ability. The thought that a champion retains his title after a drawn match is also somewhat questionable to me. Hence Bronstein & Smyslov were really unlucky in that sense to be 'victims' of that rule. But Karpov was even 'luckier' to have gained the championship thro Fischer's withdrawal. But than again while Karpov defended his titile successfully until Kaspy came along, Botvinnik lost and regained his title thro rematches the following year.

The 'Botvinnik rule' which you brought up is a good point & has potential to open up a big discussion. Could he have survived the candidates?? Maybe.  I dunno. Maybe i will chip in something after seeing what you guys have to write about it.
  

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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #54 - 08/04/05 at 23:16:35
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I expect that this suggestion will be met with howls of derision, but I've been leafing through The Sorcerer's Apprentice this evening, and Bronstein makes no secret of his contempt for Botvinnik.  Could Botvinnik, in fact, be the weakest world champion?

Note that Botvinnik played five matches for the world championship, but only won two of them.  And likely only qualified to win the two he did because of the absurd rule he made up that guaranteed him a rematch should he lose the title (do you really think he could have made it through all the candidates' matches to challenge Smyslov or Tal?).  Moreover, he was especially selective in who was invited to the 1948 AVRO tournament at which he won the title.  In his match with Bronstein, which he drew, he won the final two games after Bronstein was comfortably ahead.  Was Bronstein coerced?  Bronstein also notes that Botvinnik won all his games in that match after adjournments--Bronstein all his at the first sitting.  No one would question Botvinnik's powers of analysis, but he certainly was fallible at the board (same as in his matches with Tal).  Botvinnik was not above avoiding players either, especially Najdorf and others.  Botvinnik also had the ruthless Soviet machine in his corner, which bent over backwards to support him and his claim to the championship.

Just some rambling thoughts...
  

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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #53 - 08/04/05 at 22:48:06
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Thanks everybody for the information about Petrosjan. I can confirm, that he still is a national hero of Armenia. A couple of years ago I met an immigrant from Armenia in The Netherlands. He had no clue about chess, but was very pleased, when I dropped the name of the WCh.
Spielmann's open letter J'accuse is also in Michael Ehn's book. Except that it shows Spielmann fine and subtle sense of humour, I do not quite understand what happened. I can not think of any reason, why Alekhine should behave hostile against Spielmann. The latter did not belong to the top anymore for 5 years. OK, Spielmann had robbed Alekhine from the tournament win in Karlsbad 1923. But in the other big tournaments of the early 30'ies Spielmann also participated, without Alekhine causing problems.
I do not think Spielmann was excluded from the AVRO tournament because of anti-semitism. Spielmann played in the Noordwijk tournament of the same year on recommendation of Euwe and performed very badly.
Taljechin, we Dutchies can be proud of your last reason to consider Euwe the weakest WCh!
  

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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #52 - 08/04/05 at 15:41:29
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Bronstein also says he met Petrosjan for the first time in Tblisi in 1942 in the sorcerer's apprecentice.
  

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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #51 - 08/04/05 at 14:41:30
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As is so often the case, the more I research something the less I know.

Petrosian played his first tournaments in Tblisi and he played for the Georgian Championship numerous times.  His father, Vartan, was a caretaker at the Officer's House in Tbilisi, and he grew up playing Turkish checkers and nardy  (a board game popular throughout the Caucuses).  He played the "Armenian Variation" of the QGD in a simul against Capablanca, which was supposedly named after him. 

He was the Champion of Georgia in 1945 and of Armenia in 1946.  Igor Bondarevsky urged that he move to Moscow to play with the strongest players in the Soviet Union (apparently Bondarevsky wasn't worried about what "strong" means  Grin).  Petrosian often returned to play in tournaments in Tblisi, but rarely to Yerevan. 

I'd like to find out which team(s) he played for in the USSR Team Championships.  All I've found so far is a record of his games and that he played top board.  Does anyone have any more info on him?  (My main sources are Shekhtman's The Games of Tigran Petrosian, vol I & II(1991) and Chessbase.)
  
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